Re: (TFT) Shield rush in Melee

[Stephen Rogers <epilgrim@optonline.net>]

My players and I tweaked the Shield-Rush rules a bit to reflect the ability
of an agile figure to "turn" or absorb the blow of this attack, or
conversely to award the very strong figure as it steam-rolls the opposition.
Here's the text:

5.9.8 The Shield-Rush Attack, basically slamming your shield into an enemy
in order to knock him down, is an important tactic in some forms of combat.
5.9.8.1 This attack takes the place of any standard Man-to-Man combat
attack. In order to make this attack you must have a ready shield.
5.9.8.2 Make your attack as usual. If you fail to strike, nothing happens.
If you do strike your opponent must make a saving roll against his or her
adjDX to remain standing. No hits are inflicted.
5.9.8.3 As a special DX adjustment take the adjDX of the target and subtract
the initial ST of the attacker. Apply the result, plus or minus, to the
saving roll, (T) adjDX - (A) ST= (+/-DX).
5.9.8.4 A figure cannot shield-rush an enemy with an initial ST more than
twice its own. In addition, regardless of ST a single-hex figure cannot
shield-rush a multi-hex figure.

We have found that this rewards and penalizes the use of this tactic very
evenly for all figures.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter von Kleinsmid" <pvk@oz.net>
To: <tft@brainiac.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: (TFT) Shield rush in Melee


> I thought Ty Beard's post about his real-life observations about the
> effects of strength were very interesting (from a realism standpoint), and
> I'd very much like to hear more theories on how specifically strength
> and/or weight can make a difference in light-strike/parry sports such as
> the fencing, kendo, and taekwondo mentioned. All that comes to mind that
> fits is being able to overpower a parry (or parry more effectively) with
> strength - is that it?
>
> (That is, clearly there are some other effects, but I didn't get the
> impression these were applicable to what Ty was saying:
> * The weaker opponent will tend to get more worn out.
> * The stronger opponent will hit harder (shouldn't matter in fencing or
kendo).
> * The stronger opponent would have the advantage in shoving and wrestling,
> but I don't think those play a part in any of the mentioned sports.
> * The larger/stronger opponent would tend to be tougher and more
> damage-resistant (should only substantially apply to TKD).
> * The larger/taller opponent would tend to have greater leverage, reach,
> and stride.)
>
> Similar to Martin Gallo's post about reservations with SCA observations, I
> would add that in sports where hits aren't intended to do serious injury,
> the outcome would be slightly stacked against a more agile fighter with
> less strength, because the agile fighter isn't generally allowed to
> debilitate the opponent, which could happen in a single attack in actual
> combat (more or less likely depending on equipment, of course).
>
> PvK
>
> At 12:38 PM 11/14/03 -0600, Ty Beard wrote:
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Martin Gallo" <martimer@mindspring.com>
> >To: <tft@brainiac.com>
> >Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 11:54 AM
> >Subject: Re: (TFT) Shield rush in Melee
> >
> >
> > > It still sounds like a lot of extra die rolling. Other than that it
> > > is interesting.
> >
> >Yes, I agree. The problem is that I don't think that you want shield
rushes
> >to be overly effective, given that they deny an opponent his attack. At
> >least that's how I see it right now.
> >
> >Therefore, I required both a to hit roll and a "knock him down" roll.
> >
> >Another tack might be to treat the shield as a club -- i.e., it does the
> >base ST damage, plus some amount (say +5). This damage is assessed solely
to
> >determine if the foe is stunned or knocked down.
> >
> > > Also, I think there are two types of shield rush tactics in melee type
> >combat.
> > >
> > > One is where the shield is used offensively to interfere with the
> > > opposing weapon (above and beyond just blocking it) in order to make
> > > an attack more effective or likely with the attacking weapon. If I
> > > recall correctly, the shield is basically swept across the space
> > > between the combatants while the opposing weapon is attacking. The
> > > shield sweep is followed up with an attack. If done properly, and
> > > this involves a lot of timing as well as strength and coordination,
> > > the opponent is usually knocked off balance or out of rhythm thus
> > > making the follow up attack more effective.
> > >
> > > The other is to knock the opponent down or back. It does not involve
> > > the attacking weapon, just a 'bull rush' maneuver where strength,
> > > speed and weight are more important.
> >
> >I agree, but I think that the role of ST in hth combat, grappling, etc.,
is
> >greatly underrated in most games and indeed in Hollywood and popular
> >fiction. How many times do we see 5'2" women beat up 6' guys? Or little
Mr.
> >Myagi-type guys defeat much larger bad guys?
> >
> >Yet the professional fighters, judo contestants, real wrestlers, etc.,
are
> >grouped in relatively narrow weight bands for a very good reason:
strength
> >and mass profoundly influence one's chance of winning such a fight. A
fencer
> >friend of mine sneers at fencers who win matches with strength rather
than
> >skill; yet he readily concedes that one can win with strength.
> >
> >My own personal experience bears this out. For 9 years -- in Taekwondo,
Judo
> >and some minor experience in Kendo -- I found myself at a disadvantage
> >against larger/stronger foes (I was about average height and weight),
> >regardless of the difference in experience (not including novices of
> >course). I recall attempting to randori with a far lower ranked 250 pound
> >guy who was a little shorter than me (I weighed 145 lbs then). A long,
long
> >day. Of course that was a long time ago, but I recall it quite vividly.
> >
> >In my experience, female martial artists -- who have biological
limitations
> >on physical strength -- were generally unable to compete with men who
were
> >the same size or larger unless the women had a profound advantage in
> >training. Even then, it was iffy. I found this to be true in taekwondo
> >(kicking and punching), judo (grappling) and kendo (swords). Despite the
> >dact that generally, I found women to be somewhat better students -- more
> >attentive to instruction. They also were more flexible and a little more
> >agile (aspects of DX in TFT terms). The main advantage the men possess is
> >greater physical strength and this seems to profoundly impact the outcome
of
> >contests. (On a tangent, I don't find this to be generally true of
> >pre-pubescent children -- my 8 year old daughter consistently out-spars
up
> >my buddies' 8 year old sons. But I doubt that this will be true in 10
> >years.)
> >
> >Note that most sports have conceded the strength angle by having separate
> >associations for men and women.
> >
> >And certainly, most professional sports place a very high premium on
> >physical strength.
> >
> >So I feel pretty comfortable in making shield-rushes ST dependent.
> >
> >--Ty
> >=====
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