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Re: (TFT) Re: TFT Digest V4 #348

The French won because the English ran out of trained archers which takes a
long time to become very good, there are plenty of examples of Lords who had
the best armor being pin cushioned by multiple arrows even late into 100 years
war and after.

 Also the English lost more because of internal disputes (Henry VI an abysmal
king) and poor generalship than anything.  They fought generally at the wrong
place and the wrong time because of poor decisions of their leaders which cost
a lot of archers their lives, weakening the English army which could not
replace the trained archers they had.  In addition their supplies and
logistics were also terrible another leadership problem they didn't deal with.
Just for illustration purposes it is said that it took 15 years to train an
archer (from the yeomanry) in a 100 years that only gives you 6-7
replacements.  Obviously that is an exaggeration but you understand the idea.

 It takes a lot less time to train a man at arms to ride well and attack from
a horse.  I lived next to a horse ranch and saw people trained and also rode
myself, horses and riders can be trained fairly quickly.  Don't think so see
the Yankee Cav (mostly city bred non horsemen) in the Civil war by 1863 they
were as good as the Confederates who are considered some of the best to ever
take to the saddle.   Also the US Cav and Volunteers in the Spanish American
war were brought up to speed very quickly in formation and maneuver tactics,
obviously the people had some idea as to how to ride, then again so did the
French.  It is the maneuver and formation that they had to learn which takes a
lot less time than building up the strength, stamina and accuracy that a
veteran English archer had.

   Edward Kroeten
     Farmers Agent
     39899 Balentine Drive Suite 200
     Newark, CA 94560
     Phone 510-579-0135
     Fax 510-438-6875
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 ------ Original Message ------
   Received: 06:43 AM PDT, 08/27/2013
   From: David Bofinger <bofinger.david@gmail.com>
   To: tft@brainiac.com
   Subject: (TFT) Re: TFT Digest V4 #348

     > there are numerous accounts of arrows not just penetrating the front
       the heavy plate
       > armor but coming out through the back as well. There is no way to
       > even at 50 yards plus the arrow would as you say just appear in the

       To put it into perspective, though:

       Agincourt was one of the great successes of longbow archery. The
       killed thousands of French men at arms using longbow arrows. But to do
       they loosed hundreds of thousands of arrows. The vast bulk of those
       either missed or bounced off the armour, even at shorter ranges. So if
       anything went through two layers it must have been a freak shot or

       It's worth remembering that the French won that war, partly because
       face-hardened plate armour would bounce arrows. What it couldn't bounce
       gunpowder weapons, which is a big part of why they took over.

       The longbow's D-shaped cross-section is a surprisingly poor design. A
       flatbow, for instance, with a square cross-section, is more efficient.
       theory an I-beam design would be even better but I don't know of anyone
       did that.

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