Re: (TFT) Re: TFT Digest V4 #463

[Jay Carlisle <maou.tsaou@gmail.com>]

Ringside... that's a title that escaped Me... Avalon Hill?
I have focused on athletics as a additional set of Actions that give
Hero's options to spend fST for enhanced effect in balance to straight
spells. fST fits the mechanic typically occupied by HP "damage" much
better I find and actually models actual conflict much better at least
from My limited experience as the hurt generally results from being to
fatigued to offer effective resistance baring lucky blows etc. with
effects like bleeding amplifying this idea in practice at least to
hear the purpose of knife combat presented in My way back days of
infantry training where one is either trying for a stab to the
internals or a slash structurally severing a major muscle group
mechanically mucking up function and bleeding resulting in mainly
fatigue although slippery grip/footing and similar may also play parts
but bleeding would usually not be considered a goal directly as the
period of time required is considerable in combat consideration where
a minute can be forever in practice and with ST given as 1 pt foot pounds of force I find what isn't mitigated can be applied to
describe straight injuries rather than abstract HP's that in effect
are serving in a similar picture without the clearer conception that
allows spending fatigue for greater effect gambles where pushing ones
luck may be the only shot to win a race or similar contest where the
opposition has training or a significant advantage that otherwise
would for all intents and purposes leave no question as to the
outcome. One of My gripes I've sought to address in the addition of
constructive elements added to what generally can be a destructive
model as the only means of "character" advancement problem is the fact
that many RPG's allow swinging swords to slay "monsters" without
allowing swinging bats to hit balls which points to the problem of
destructive focus as the only option offered which I'm not saying
isn't valid but I am saying isn't a requirement either for a
successful "game" experience. It's just the model that marketed the
most profits returned when totalitarian business brought out the hobby
and froze further development in favor of pushing the model still used
today in My personal impression. I find it disturbing when the
expectations of the community become so turned around that the release
of a next edition ruleset totally reworked for marketing sales with no
pretense whatsoever at improving existing mechanics isn't even
questioned for the obvious exploitation of the community it
demonstrates with each baby thrown out with the bathwater it service
of a bigger bottom line and the community accepts such as that's fine.
That's a paramount obstruction blocking the development of the
tabletop mediums potential which never managed to finish it's initial
conception of cutting individuals out of the Unit herd as evidenced by
"human MA 10" for example which is much more of a miniatures modal
than an expression of individuality. If I'm on the right track in
advocating that it's Player participation in the creation of the
elements added through the act of Play that amount to the story or
plot normally experienced passively as a finished work in other
storytelling mediums that bar participation in the creation of the
works final form is a huge failure to play to the strengths of the
medium in design instead trying to mimic another mediums strengths to
meh effect. In FPS video like Boarderlands this shows as two Players
getting the same cut scene regardless of the button mashing
performance between scenes with one Player practically perfect the
other pitiful in Play performance which plot invalidates when
pre-written  I feel a number of titles have conceptualized ideas for
other approaches that have seen totalitarian business tactics prevent
in the standard practice of gutting the development team core of a
title with franchise potential after the bulk of the content that can
be milked from them creatively has been extracted and a less
artistically minded crew can replace those directly tied to the
contents creation and more likely to contend corporate calls to
maximize profits not the product itself. Here's hoping the recent slap
the destiny ruling awarding the composer nearly point for point what
was asked for in the wrongful termination suit sees a halt to the
practice as that's a fairly clear message indicating more than a
misstep took place.
Anyway I'll see if I can dig up text on Ringside as it sounds spot on
to what I'm looking at for detailed dueling and blow by blow combat
TFT doesn't do which is tough to get across conceptually as that dice
roll feels like an individual blow not a cumulative result of 5
seconds action in the manner of u.s. football short yardage plays.
With each square in the 1.3m hex on quarter inch graph paper working
out to a good enough for government work square foot per square (more
like 13" by 13" but that's quibbling when that square foot is
conceptually so useful) I can even represent footwork for fencing or
the sweet science where working an opponent into a corner can be a
tactical goal... or the reverse rope-a-dope of course which is fatigue
focused for sure. Stopping a planed routine on the other hand is
pretty hard especially if practice has set reflexive muscle memory.
Ever seen the mistake happening as You make it spotting it but unable
to stop it? Still trying to hit that fastball You can't see is worse I
think for leaving one feeling helpless. Totally outclassed is a
horrible experience but the way to experience meh in all things is to
risk no weaknesses to focus on no strengths trying to cover all
bases...
Plus each sport can get a fantasy treatment times two with the real
teams version and the blood bowl fantasy title as stand alone product
from a Jay has a stomach too Ya know perspective...


On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Marc Gacy <marcgacy@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Jay,  Have you ever seen an old boxing game called Ringside, wher the
y
> had various moves like Uppercut and Combination.
>
> There was a matrix showing the effect of two fighters choosing a move
> simultaneously and revealing it.
>
> I was reminded of it seeing your list.
> ᐧ
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Jay Carlisle <maou.tsaou@gmail.com> wrote
:
>
>> X > (called Rest for simplicity)
>> L > S > C > K > JB > CL > R > T > P > B > Sur > OP1 > OP2 > OB1 > OB2 >
>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Jay Carlisle <maou.tsaou@gmail.com> wrot
e
> :
>> > Well burst My bubble and point out the flawed model that judges the
>> > standard according to what humans value ergo baby chimp is less than
>> > human because language is limited to a few phrases when human baby
>> > babbles with a bigger vocabulary vocal chords a moot consideration
>> > along with motor coordination and similar areas the humans have no
>> > advantage in... However the idea is that a statistical mechanic is
>> > representative of a definable concept that communicates an objective
>> > idea with some precision owing to the quantification so while totally
>> > fair as a point about assumptions of what IQ is overall I specifically
>> > use IQ as a measure of how quickly a Figure can perceive it's
>> > environment defined by IQ > > Figure can take on in Talents, Followers
, and Orders and maintain at
>> > full effect. In effect the faster a Figure sees the smarter it is and
>> > the more specific functions can be maintained in the same period of
>> > routine compared to a Figure with a lower IQ. The idea is 1pt of IQ
>> > cost in a Talent represents not only the IQ cost to purchase said
>> > Talent but also represents the time required in maintaining said
>> > Talent each unit of downtime routine not actively engaged in gameplay
>> > per say. S^3 fits there as well (S#!^, shower, shave activity and the
>> > like) while 2sec/IQ (Joe Average ~0.2 second) is the see/decide time
>> > that added with reaction time via DX (1 second / DX) determines which
>> > phases are Actionable for a Figure naturally for focused combat that
>> > looks at detail the 5 second turn technically subsumes into what's
>> > basically a CRT for Melee as far as individual strikes are
>> > concerned... I use En Guard!/Swashbuckler style actions/reactions for
>> > this focus and the CRT generalization expands up into mass combat by
>> > extending scale/duration higher than 1.3m/5sec with the Lords of
>> > titles showing the concept isn't unfounded for TFT...
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 6:41 AM, Cris Fuhrman <fuhrmanator@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> Thomas Armstrong, "7 Kinds of Smart":
>> >>
>> >>    1. Word smart (verbal intelligence)
>> >>    2. Picture smart
>> >>    3. Music smart
>> >>    4. Body smart (kenesthetic intelligence)
>> >>    5. Logic smart (math/science)
>> >>    6. People smart (social sense)
>> >>    7. Self smart (intrapersonal intellect)
>> >>
>> >> TFT Talents try to model a lot of these notions, but it still ties ba
c
> k
>> to
>> >> one number (IQ). Pushing the basic Melee/Wizard model clearly fails w
i
> th
>> >> reality. What about eusociality? Is ant intelligence higher than a
>> fighter?
>> >>
>> >> All models are wrong; some models are useful. (George Box?)
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 1:20 AM, Jay Carlisle <maou.tsaou@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Got the errata
>> >>> Thanks
>> >>> And I got the IQ 7 for ProotWiz'es although they may not actually be
>> >>> proots if the tribe runs them off... anyway, I'z musing as to what
>> >>> this might mean looking toward IQ 1 spells, if suchathing exists at
>> >>> all that is...
>> >>> IDK... Let's just say when testing defenses I find a fruitful first
>> >>> start often comes from targeting the assumptions... For general
>> >>> discussion I often describe "Magic" as the ability to call a virtual
>> >>> particle of specific traits into being via vacuum genesis as the roo
t
>> >>> concept being manipulated but that's just one possibility that serve
s
>> >>> more to show how much such a concept can influence the idea as oppos
e
> d
>> >>> to say sympathetic magic that may be heavy on components and the
>> >>> correct verbal, gestural, procedural components to enact which is
>> >>> different from blood magic and yada yada yada... what's magic is
>> >>> affecting and area, perhaps at a distance, with an effect, and often
>> >>> with force intent on causing damage and whateverelse is lumped into
>> >>> the idea of the basic units on "Magic".
>> >>> I'm not talking about being "right" or comparing ideas so much as
>> >>> trying to point out that a LOT of core concepts are a bit... shaky
>> >>> objectively speaking and I think that the shared participation in
>> >>> what's in effect a story when the play is through is a major factor 
i
> n
>> >>> why a tabletop face to face soul rubbing RPGing gets a nod as a vali
d
>> >>> form of artistic expression albeit it's hard to say how limited the
>> >>> potential might be... and la la la, who knows? Still from that
>> >>> approach I find a clear expression of the basic "building blocks"
>> >>> helps in focusing each different Players visualization of what's
>> >>> happening into that shared gestalt of play.
>> >>> Uhhhh game as model railroad. There's the top of the model and there
'
> s
>> >>> underneath the model and both are needed for the displays that attra
c
> t
>> >>> the largest number of peoples attention... or describe the target
>> >>> interest group better if going that way with it the idea being not
>> >>> having a bunch of scenery guys show up to the experimental wiring
>> >>> wingding... not as likely to have everybody enjoy the focus that
>> >>> way...
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 9:19 PM, David Bofinger
>> >>> <bofinger.david@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> > On second thoughts add:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >    - SUMMON PROOTWADDLE (C: IQ 7, ST 1/1) Summons a prootwaddle [S
>> >>> > T 10, DX
>> >>> >    10, IQ 6, MA 10, carries two-handed maul 1+1, 1-3 unarmed in HT
H
> ]
>> to
>> >>> fig
>> >>> > ht
>> >>> >    for the caster.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > and modify:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >    - UNREALISTIC IMAGE (C: IQ 7, ST 1/-) Creates a translucent 1 h
e
> x
>> >>> image
>> >>> >    that wouldn't normally fool anyone. Last 12 turns. Can be
>> disbelieve
>> >> d
>> >>> on
>> >>> >  2
>> >>> >    vs IQ. Can be as effective, or almost as effective, as a normal
>> Imag
>> >> e
>> >>> sp
>> >>> > ell
>> >>> >    in difficult seeing conditions (fog, etc.), if the creature bei
n
> g
>> >>> simula
>> >>> > ted
>> >>> >    happens to be translucent, or if the observer is a prootwaddle.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > The spells are IQ 7, not IQ 1. Probably should be a space between 
I
> Q
>> an
>> >> d
>> >>> 7.
>> >>> > The idea is that an ordinary prootwaddle can't learn them, but one
> of
>> >>> those
>> >>> > rare freakish prootwaddle geniuses can.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > --
>> >>> > David
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > On 1 December 2015 at 15:05, David Bofinger <
>> bofinger.david@gmail.com>
>> >>> > wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >> I think animals should have a sort of IQ crippleware. It can do
>> some o
>> >> f
>> >>> >> what IQ does, willpower and perception for instance, but not
>> everythin
>> >> g.
>> >>> >> And they have instinctive talents like Alertness.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> My IQ 7 spells are:
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>    - BLUNT WEAPON (T: IQ7, ST 1/-) A blunt weapon does 1 point le
s
> s
>> >>> >>    damage. A weapon can be blunted up to 5 times, subsequent uses
>> of t
>> >> he
>> >>> > spell
>> >>> >>    have no effect. Blunting is a permanent effect and can be
>> corrected
>> >>> by
>> >>> >>    Repair or use of a whetstone. Ineffective against weapons that
>> are
>> >>> alr
>> >>> > eady
>> >>> >>    blunt.
>> >>> >>    - FOG (C: IQ7, ST 1/-) Fills one hex with a magical fog that
>> somewh
>> >> at
>> >>> >>    obscures vision. -2 DX for missiles per hex of fog, and -2 DX 
i
> f
>> >>> attac
>> >>> > king
>> >>> >>    into or out of it. Anyone in or entering the fog also becomes
>> >>> slightly
>> >>> >>    damp. Lasts 12 turns, or less in wind.
>> >>> >>    - KILL RAT (T: IQ7, ST 1/-) Causes 1 point of damage. Does get
>> >>> stopped
>> >>> >>    by armour.
>> >>> >>    - LITERACY (S: IQ7, ST 2/-) Allows the caster to read and writ
e
>> any
>> >>> >>    languages he knows, but reduces his IQ to 6 and disorders his
>> commo
>> >> n
>> >>> s
>> >>> > ense.
>> >>> >>    The spell lasts one minute: long enough to, for instance, writ
e
>  a
>> >>> slog
>> >>> > an on
>> >>> >>    his own or another prootwaddle's body. The negative effects of
>> the
>> >>> spe
>> >>> > ll,
>> >>> >>    however, pretty much guarantee the slogan will be bizarre at
>> best a
>> >> nd
>> >>> >>    gibberish at worst.
>> >>> >>    - MAGIC ROCK (M: IQ7, ST V/-) Creates and flings a magic rock 
t
> o
>> >>> >>    damage a single target. Does 1D-3 (minimum 0) for each ST poin
t
>> use
>> >> d
>> >>> t
>> >>> > o
>> >>> >>    cast.
>> >>> >>    - PROOT! (T: IQ7, ST 1/-) Makes a loud “Pr
o
> ot! Proo-oot!ï
>> >> ¿½â‚¬
>> >>> >   noise –
>> >>> >>    louder than a prootwaddle can make. Prootwaddles find the soun
d
>> >>> reassu
>> >>> > ring.
>> >>> >>    Non-prootwaddles find it irritating.
>> >>> >>    - PUSH / PULL (T: IQ7, ST 2/-) Victim must roll 3 vs DX, or 4 
v
> s
>> ST
>> >> ,
>> >>> >>    victim's choice. If he fails he must step directly away from (
f
> or
>> >>> push
>> >>> > ) or
>> >>> >>    toward (for pull) the caster, or fall down. (As though forced 
t
> o
>> >>> retre
>> >>> > at.)
>> >>> >>    Can also be used to push around inanimate objects, or even
>> friends.
>> >>> >>    - SPEED HAIR (T: IQ7, ST 3/-) For the next day the target's ha
i
> r
>> >>> >>    (wherever on body) grows at twice the normal rate.
>> >>> >>    - SUMMON HOUSE CAT (C: IQ7, ST 1/1) Summons a House Cat [ST 4,
>> DX 1
>> >> 4,
>> >>> >>    IQ 5, MA 14. 1-2 in HTH only, -3 DX for enemies to hit it] to
>> fight
>> >>> fo
>> >>> > r the
>> >>> >>    caster.
>> >>> >>    - SUMMON VERMIN (T: IQ7, ST 1/1) Summons vermin to fight for t
h
> e
>> >>> >>    caster, of a kind with which the caster is familiar: rats, bat
s
> ,
>> >>> piran
>> >>> > has,
>> >>> >>    piranhakeets, scuttles or something similar at GM discretion.
>> Roll
>> >>> one
>> >>> >  die
>> >>> >>    for the number, -1 if the environment is not really suitable, 
-
> 2
>> if
>> >>> hi
>> >>> > ghly
>> >>> >>    unsuitable, -1 for bats, -2 for piranhakeets.
>> >>> >>    - THICKSKINNED (T: IQ7, ST 2/-) Target's skin becomes thick an
d
>> >>> >>    leathery, it stops 2 hits but the target suffers -1 DX.
>> >>> >>    - UNREALISTIC IMAGE (C: IQ7, ST 1/-) Creates a translucent 1 h
e
> x
>> >>> image
>> >>> >>    that wouldn't normally fool anyone. Last 12 turns. Can be
>> disbeliev
>> >> ed
>> >>> > on 2
>> >>> >>    vs IQ. In difficult seeing conditions (fog, etc.) can be almos
t
>> as
>> >>> >>    effective as a regular Image. Also effective if the creature
>> being
>> >>> >>    simulated happens to be translucent.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> --
>> >>> >> David
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> On 1 December 2015 at 13:23, Jay Carlisle <maou.tsaou@gmail.com>
>> wrote
>> >> :
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>> Agreed David... working up a basic Google.doc for each stat as I
>> >>> >>> currently have worked up. In a 3 stat system each stat needs to 
d
> o
>> >>> >>> more than a single task and I use IQ as a measure of perception
>> and a
>> >> s
>> >>> >>> a measure of how effective a Figure or Unit can be at
>> micro-managing
>> >>> >>> its time which in effect allows more Followers/Talents/Orders to
> be
>> >>> >>> carried the higher the IQ. Orders are in effect Talents learned 
a
> s
>> a
>> >>> >>> Unit and able to be executed en mass and the above is more a rul
e
>> of
>> >>> >>> thumb guide to what kind of Orders might be expected from a Unit
> of
>> >>> >>> whathaveyou rather than trying to pin individual IQ's per say...
>> >>> >>> although the point about the monkey is quite interesting...
>> assuming
>> >>> >>> communication was possible such that an Order set was able to be
>> >>> >>> established and the monkey was hip to thinking like a human of
>> course
>> >> .
>> >>> >>> Plant's as individuals may not influence on a Melee scale of act
i
> on
>> >>> >>> but the idea of a bio-region of plants being in a network may al
l
> ow
>> >>> >>> some influence on such activity? Agent Orange? IDK... How much d
o
> es
>> >>> >>> swimming have to do with smart?
>> >>> >>> Great points to mull over Sir, I'd love to see anything You migh
t
>> hav
>> >> e
>> >>> >>> to hand on IQ7 spells by the way... no worries though.
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 5:23 PM, David Bofinger
>> >>> >>> <bofinger.david@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> >>> >> IQ
>> >>> >>> >> 0 >> >> 1 >> >> 2 >> >> 3 >> >> 4 >> >> 5 >> >> 6 >> >> 7 >> 
>
>>
>> 8
>> >>> >> >> 9 >> >> 10 >> >
>> >>> >>> > TL;DR but I picked this up skimming. My first instinct is that
>> it's
>> >>> go
>> >>> > t
>> >>> >>> to
>> >>> >>> > be wrong. By these definitions a fighter who owned a pet monke
y
>> mig
>> >> ht
>> >>> > be
>> >>> >>> > well advised to let it handle the thinking.
>> >>> >>> >
>> >>> >>> > IQ 7 lets you buy weapon skills. I don't know if anyone's taug
h
> t
>> a
>> >>> >>> monkey
>> >>> >>> > to fence, but I would guess someone in a circus has tried so
>> probab
>> >> ly
>> >>> >>> they
>> >>> >>> > failed.
>> >>> >>> >
>> >>> >>> > Great apes will occasionally use clubs but that doesn't requir
e
>  a
>> >>> >>> talent.
>> >>> >>> >
>> >>> >>> > Some apes have been taught e.g. sign language but that has no 
I
> Q
>> >>> >>> threshold
>> >>> >>> > unless you call it literacy in which case it's IQ 8.
>> >>> >>> >
>> >>> >>> > Maybe chimps are IQ 4 to 6? That leaves prootwaddles slightly
>> smart
>> >> er
>> >>> >>> than
>> >>> >>> > most chimps which seems right.
>> >>> >>> >
>> >>> >>> > Birds vary a lot. Some birds, mostly corvids and parrots, are
>> reall
>> >> y
>> >>> >>> quite
>> >>> >>> > smart, probably maxing out at IQ 5 or 6. On the other hand
>> ratites
>> >>> ten
>> >>> > d
>> >>> >>> to
>> >>> >>> > be idiots.
>> >>> >>> >
>> >>> >>> > Dolphins aren't as smart as popularly imagined.
>> >>> >>> >
>> >>> >>> > Working at the trailing edge of intellect reminds me of when I
>> wrot
>> >> e
>> >>> u
>> >>> > p
>> >>> >>> IQ
>> >>> >>> > 7 spells for prootwaddle wizards. Magic Rock!
>> >>> >>> >
>> >>> >>> > --
>> >>> >>> > David
>> >>> >>> >
>> >>> >>> > >> > Post to the entire list by writing to tft@brainiac.com.
>> >>> >>> > Unsubscribe by mailing to majordomo@brainiac.com with the
>> message
>> >>> body
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e
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>> >>> >>
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