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Re: (TFT) ok im not kidding here... This is 1080 pages of 3 stat game.

To: tft@brainiac.com
Subject: Re: (TFT) ok im not kidding here... This is 1080 pages of 3 stat game.
From: Joel BoardgameRpger <joel.siragher@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 14:54:32 -0500
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Reply-to: tft@brainiac.com
Sender: tft-admin@brainiac.com

Jim, I completely acknowledge and validate what you are saying

Im still talking about a different sort of fun. I like combats that are
more tactically challenging, regardless how nicely the DM describes it.



On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Jim Kundert <gypsycomet@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sure, but good accurate tactics require more than the barest iota of
> self preservation that most RPG PCs display. A significant part of
> accurate tactics is denial of options, opportunity, and information.
> If you can't model the fog of battle and the urge to get behind
> something bullet/arrow proof then the third item becomes impossible to
> attain. "He's just a piece of paper" means any opportunity seen will
> be undertaken regardless of danger, and that means no options are
> denied either...
>
> Tabletop tactics and real world tactics are different critters.
>
> On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Joel BoardgameRpger
> <joel.siragher@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Tacticals have a sufficiently defined combat rule so that no gm feed
> > back... this is true
> >
> > However,  you might be missing my point in that I think that its a fun
> part
> > of the game, and
> > that im looking for other games that have good tactical rules built into
> > them. I am a boardgamer as well as
> > a roleplayer. So good tactical rules in an rpg appeal to me.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 12:45 PM, Jim Kundert <gypsycomet@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> The label is less about accurate tactics and more about the thought
> >> processes of the players.  The Strategic/Narrative games feature
> >> combat systems that run on the basis of telling the GM what you *want*
> >> to do and him returning with what happens, while the Tacticals have
> >> sufficiently defined combat rules that no GM feedback is required
> >> unless there is a difference between what is visible to players and
> >> reality (like traps, etc.).
> >>
> >> On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 9:36 AM, Joel BoardgameRpger
> >> <joel.siragher@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > im quite familiar with herogames. I wouldnt call it tactical because
> its
> >> > missing essential zone of control elements, or what would call
> >> > engaged/disengaged in tft. Also Facing usually isnt taken seriously.
> >> There
> >> > is a gangup bonus. but mostly its fire and forget, leaning heavily on
> >> > segmented speed/movement.  Id put RQ, and paladium in the same
> abstracted
> >> > box that dnd 2,3.x came out of. FGU games and Dragon quest have good
> >> > candiddates but not really an option because they are completely
> >> > unsuported. Mind you this term 'unsupported' seems to be cropping up
> now
> >> > adays.  they take it to mean 'just recently no longer published.'   I
> >> > consider no longer supported as in FGU and DQ havent been printed or
> >> pushed
> >> > in 20 years. now thats a WHOLE truck load of unsupported.
> >> >
> >> > I havent tried chainmail, ill have to find a copy of the rules.
> >> >
> >> > MOARRR. MOOARRRR. :)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 9:57 AM, Jim Kundert <gypsycomet@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Chainmail is not an RPG.  While it sits in the transitional spot from
> >> >> miniatures wargames to RPGs, its direct descendent (D&D) is not a
> >> >> tactical game.  TFT is the fence-sitter that directly spawned or
> >> >> inspired the tactical combat RPGs.  GURPS and Hero share the dice
> >> >> mechanic (3d6) and armor mechanic, but the structured options within
> a
> >> >> turn of TFT, along with movement and facing rules that actually
> >> >> matter, are what define the Tactical family of RPGs.
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 6:25 AM, Geof Gibson <geofgibson@mac.com>
> wrote:
> >> >> > Don't forget the Grandaddy of TSR's games, Chainmail.
> >> >> > That was more tactical as it was really designed for miniatures
> rather
> >> >> than
> >> >> > extended adventures.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Mar 7, 2013, at 12:37 AM, Jim Kundert wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> The most well known would be Hero (aka Champions) and 3+ D&D, but
> the
> >> >> >> semi-tactical combat of Runequest (and all of the rest of the BRP
> >> >> >> family, including Call of Cthulhu) also owes something to TFT. The
> >> >> >> first ed of Runequest even said so in the credits.  Some other
> more
> >> >> >> obscure games may also be in the tactical RPG family tree, but
> quite
> >> a
> >> >> >> few have gone the way of the Dodo.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Compare those to the Strategics and Narratives, including all of
> >> TSR's
> >> >> >> D&D and other games, quite a lot of FGU's stable, White Wolf, Ars
> >> >> >> Magica, and amusingly, Palladium, which has somewhat rigorous
> >> movement
> >> >> >> rules but includes so many exceptions and scale blow-outs that
> combat
> >> >> >> is almost always narrative instead.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The divide also broadly coincides with the Player Ascendent vs GM
> >> >> >> Ascendent phenomenon, though the match is not perfect.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 9:26 PM, Joel BoardgameRpger
> >> >> >> <joel.siragher@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >>> jim besides gurps and tft, what other games would you consider
> >> strongly
> >> >> >>> tactical.
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 2:48 PM, Brett Slocum <
> >> brett.slocum@gmail.com>
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>> Microlite 20 is not based on TFT. Its a very light d20-based
> >> system.
> >> >> >>>> On Mar 6, 2013 1:26 PM, "Jim Kundert" <gypsycomet@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >>>>> Which is ironic since TFT is the grand-daddy of the strongly
> >> tactical
> >> >> >>>>> RPG combat engines.
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>> On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 9:51 AM, Geof Gibson <
> geofgibson@mac.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >>>>>> In my experience with RPGs, and this system appears to be no
> >> >> exception,
> >> >> >>>>>> movement is very abstracted and subject to the whim of the
> DM/GM
> >> as
> >> >> to
> >> >> >>>>> how
> >> >> >>>>>> long it takes to get there.
> >> >> >>>>>> The only aspects of movement with any regulation is in
> regards to
> >> >> using
> >> >> >>>>> DX to
> >> >> >>>>>> determine initiative.
> >> >> >>>>>> Other than that it is usually common sense.  The DM isn't
> going
> >> to
> >> >> let
> >> >> >>>> a
> >> >> >>>>> human
> >> >> >>>>>> run away from a dragon, even if he's Jesse Owens.
> >> >> >>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>> On Mar 6, 2013, at 10:41 AM, Joel BoardgameRpger wrote:
> >> >> >>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>>> Im not sure. It might be in the second volumn which i
> downloaded
> >> >> >>>>> yesterday.
> >> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 11:23 AM, Cris Fuhrman <
> >> >> fuhrmanator@gmail.com>
> >> >> >>>>>> wrote:
> >> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>>>> I couldn't find base rules about movement. Is it totally
> >> >> abstracted?
> >> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Mar 5, 2013 at 4:51 PM, Joel BoardgameRpger <
> >> >> >>>>>>>> joel.siragher@gmail.com
> >> >> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>>>>> ok im not kidding here... This is 1080 pages of 3 stat
> game.
> >> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>>>>> I downloaded it, read about 130 pages and it looks good.
> >> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>
> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >>
> http://blog.retroroleplaying.com/2012/02/microlite20-rpg-collection-2012-edit
> >> >> >>>>>> ion.html
> >> >> >>>>>>>> =====
> >> >> >>>>>>>> Post to the entire list by writing to tft@brainiac.com.
> >> >> >>>>>>>> Unsubscribe by mailing to majordomo@brainiac.com with the
> >> message
> >> >> >>>> body
> >> >> >>>>>>>> "unsubscribe tft"
> >> >> >>>>>>> =====
> >> >> >>>>>>> Post to the entire list by writing to tft@brainiac.com.
> >> >> >>>>>>> Unsubscribe by mailing to majordomo@brainiac.com with the
> >> message
> >> >> >>>> body
> >> >> >>>>>>> "unsubscribe tft"
> >> >> >>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>> Geof Gibson - geofgibson@mac.com
> >> >> >>>>>> Please note my email address.  I will be retiring my old Cox
> >> >> account.
> >> >> >>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>>
> >> >> >>>>>> "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when
> >> the
> >> >> >>>>> government
> >> >> >>>>>> fears the people, there is liberty."
> >> >> >>>>>> Thomas Jefferson
> >> >> >>>>>> =====
> >> >> >>>>>> Post to the entire list by writing to tft@brainiac.com.
> >> >> >>>>>> Unsubscribe by mailing to majordomo@brainiac.com with the
> >> message
> >> >> body
> >> >> >>>>>> "unsubscribe tft"
> >> >> >>>>> =====
> >> >> >>>>> Post to the entire list by writing to tft@brainiac.com.
> >> >> >>>>> Unsubscribe by mailing to majordomo@brainiac.com with the
> message
> >> >> body
> >> >> >>>>> "unsubscribe tft"
> >> >> >>>> =====
> >> >> >>>> Post to the entire list by writing to tft@brainiac.com.
> >> >> >>>> Unsubscribe by mailing to majordomo@brainiac.com with the
> message
> >> >> body
> >> >> >>>> "unsubscribe tft"
> >> >> >>> =====
> >> >> >>> Post to the entire list by writing to tft@brainiac.com.
> >> >> >>> Unsubscribe by mailing to majordomo@brainiac.com with the
> message
> >> body
> >> >> >>> "unsubscribe tft"
> >> >> >> =====
> >> >> >> Post to the entire list by writing to tft@brainiac.com.
> >> >> >> Unsubscribe by mailing to majordomo@brainiac.com with the message
> >> body
> >> >> >> "unsubscribe tft"
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Geof Gibson - geofgibson@mac.com
> >> >> > Please note my email address.  I will be retiring my old Cox
> account.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
> >> >> government
> >> >> > fears the people, there is liberty."
> >> >> > Thomas Jefferson
> >> >> > =====
> >> >> > Post to the entire list by writing to tft@brainiac.com.
> >> >> > Unsubscribe by mailing to majordomo@brainiac.com with the message
> >> body
> >> >> > "unsubscribe tft"
> >> >> =====
> >> >> Post to the entire list by writing to tft@brainiac.com.
> >> >> Unsubscribe by mailing to majordomo@brainiac.com with the message
> body
> >> >> "unsubscribe tft"
> >> > =====
> >> > Post to the entire list by writing to tft@brainiac.com.
> >> > Unsubscribe by mailing to majordomo@brainiac.com with the message
> body
> >> > "unsubscribe tft"
> >> =====
> >> Post to the entire list by writing to tft@brainiac.com.
> >> Unsubscribe by mailing to majordomo@brainiac.com with the message body
> >> "unsubscribe tft"
> > =====
> > Post to the entire list by writing to tft@brainiac.com.
> > Unsubscribe by mailing to majordomo@brainiac.com with the message body
> > "unsubscribe tft"
> =====
> Post to the entire list by writing to tft@brainiac.com.
> Unsubscribe by mailing to majordomo@brainiac.com with the message body
> "unsubscribe tft"
=====
Post to the entire list by writing to tft@brainiac.com.
Unsubscribe by mailing to majordomo@brainiac.com with the message body
"unsubscribe tft"

References:
- (TFT) ok im not kidding here... This is 1080 pages of 3 stat game.
  - From: Joel BoardgameRpger <joel.siragher@gmail.com>
- Re: (TFT) ok im not kidding here... This is 1080 pages of 3 stat game.
  - From: Cris Fuhrman <fuhrmanator@gmail.com>
- Re: (TFT) ok im not kidding here... This is 1080 pages of 3 stat game.
  - From: Joel BoardgameRpger <joel.siragher@gmail.com>
- Re: (TFT) ok im not kidding here... This is 1080 pages of 3 stat game.
  - From: Geof Gibson <geofgibson@mac.com>
- Re: (TFT) ok im not kidding here... This is 1080 pages of 3 stat game.
  - From: Jim Kundert <gypsycomet@gmail.com>
- Re: (TFT) ok im not kidding here... This is 1080 pages of 3 stat game.
  - From: Brett Slocum <brett.slocum@gmail.com>
- Re: (TFT) ok im not kidding here... This is 1080 pages of 3 stat game.
  - From: Joel BoardgameRpger <joel.siragher@gmail.com>
- Re: (TFT) ok im not kidding here... This is 1080 pages of 3 stat game.
  - From: Jim Kundert <gypsycomet@gmail.com>
- Re: (TFT) ok im not kidding here... This is 1080 pages of 3 stat game.
  - From: Geof Gibson <geofgibson@mac.com>
- Re: (TFT) ok im not kidding here... This is 1080 pages of 3 stat game.
  - From: Jim Kundert <gypsycomet@gmail.com>
- Re: (TFT) ok im not kidding here... This is 1080 pages of 3 stat game.
  - From: Joel BoardgameRpger <joel.siragher@gmail.com>
- Re: (TFT) ok im not kidding here... This is 1080 pages of 3 stat game.
  - From: Jim Kundert <gypsycomet@gmail.com>
- Re: (TFT) ok im not kidding here... This is 1080 pages of 3 stat game.
  - From: Joel BoardgameRpger <joel.siragher@gmail.com>
- Re: (TFT) ok im not kidding here... This is 1080 pages of 3 stat game.
  - From: Jim Kundert <gypsycomet@gmail.com>

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