Re: (TFT) Re: TFT Digest V4 #463

[Jay Carlisle <maou.tsaou@gmail.com>]

Punching Chart

ANTICIPATED
                       Uppercut,     Right Jab,     Right Hook,
Combination,     Left Jab,     Left Hook

THROWN
Uppercut           -1
Right Jab            2
Right Hook         3
Combination       4
Left Jab              2
Left Hook           3

Uppercut - 1 2 2 4 2 2 H Right Jab 2 - 1 2 2 1 4 R Right Hook 3 1 - 1
2 3 3 O Combination 4 2 2 - 1 2 2 W Left Jab 2 1 4 2 - 1 2 N Left Hook
3 3 3 2 1 - 1

and yada... is this the right drop bear?

On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:06 PM, Jay Carlisle <maou.tsaou@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://annarchive.com/files/Drmg038.pdf
> ?
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:02 PM, Jay Carlisle <maou.tsaou@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ringside... that's a title that escaped Me... Avalon Hill?
>> I have focused on athletics as a additional set of Actions that give
>> Hero's options to spend fST for enhanced effect in balance to straight
>> spells. fST fits the mechanic typically occupied by HP "damage" much
>> better I find and actually models actual conflict much better at least
>> from My limited experience as the hurt generally results from being to
>> fatigued to offer effective resistance baring lucky blows etc. with
>> effects like bleeding amplifying this idea in practice at least to
>> hear the purpose of knife combat presented in My way back days of
>> infantry training where one is either trying for a stab to the
>> internals or a slash structurally severing a major muscle group
>> mechanically mucking up function and bleeding resulting in mainly
>> fatigue although slippery grip/footing and similar may also play parts
>> but bleeding would usually not be considered a goal directly as the
>> period of time required is considerable in combat consideration where
>> a minute can be forever in practice and with ST given as 1 pt = 5.5
>> foot pounds of force I find what isn't mitigated can be applied to
>> describe straight injuries rather than abstract HP's that in effect
>> are serving in a similar picture without the clearer conception that
>> allows spending fatigue for greater effect gambles where pushing ones
>> luck may be the only shot to win a race or similar contest where the
>> opposition has training or a significant advantage that otherwise
>> would for all intents and purposes leave no question as to the
>> outcome. One of My gripes I've sought to address in the addition of
>> constructive elements added to what generally can be a destructive
>> model as the only means of "character" advancement problem is the fact
>> that many RPG's allow swinging swords to slay "monsters" without
>> allowing swinging bats to hit balls which points to the problem of
>> destructive focus as the only option offered which I'm not saying
>> isn't valid but I am saying isn't a requirement either for a
>> successful "game" experience. It's just the model that marketed the
>> most profits returned when totalitarian business brought out the hobby
>> and froze further development in favor of pushing the model still used
>> today in My personal impression. I find it disturbing when the
>> expectations of the community become so turned around that the release
>> of a next edition ruleset totally reworked for marketing sales with no
>> pretense whatsoever at improving existing mechanics isn't even
>> questioned for the obvious exploitation of the community it
>> demonstrates with each baby thrown out with the bathwater it service
>> of a bigger bottom line and the community accepts such as that's fine.
>> That's a paramount obstruction blocking the development of the
>> tabletop mediums potential which never managed to finish it's initial
>> conception of cutting individuals out of the Unit herd as evidenced by
>> "human MA 10" for example which is much more of a miniatures modal
>> than an expression of individuality. If I'm on the right track in
>> advocating that it's Player participation in the creation of the
>> elements added through the act of Play that amount to the story or
>> plot normally experienced passively as a finished work in other
>> storytelling mediums that bar participation in the creation of the
>> works final form is a huge failure to play to the strengths of the
>> medium in design instead trying to mimic another mediums strengths to
>> meh effect. In FPS video like Boarderlands this shows as two Players
>> getting the same cut scene regardless of the button mashing
>> performance between scenes with one Player practically perfect the
>> other pitiful in Play performance which plot invalidates when
>> pre-written  I feel a number of titles have conceptualized ideas for
>> other approaches that have seen totalitarian business tactics prevent
>> in the standard practice of gutting the development team core of a
>> title with franchise potential after the bulk of the content that can
>> be milked from them creatively has been extracted and a less
>> artistically minded crew can replace those directly tied to the
>> contents creation and more likely to contend corporate calls to
>> maximize profits not the product itself. Here's hoping the recent slap
>> the destiny ruling awarding the composer nearly point for point what
>> was asked for in the wrongful termination suit sees a halt to the
>> practice as that's a fairly clear message indicating more than a
>> misstep took place.
>> Anyway I'll see if I can dig up text on Ringside as it sounds spot on
>> to what I'm looking at for detailed dueling and blow by blow combat
>> TFT doesn't do which is tough to get across conceptually as that dice
>> roll feels like an individual blow not a cumulative result of 5
>> seconds action in the manner of u.s. football short yardage plays.
>> With each square in the 1.3m hex on quarter inch graph paper working
>> out to a good enough for government work square foot per square (more
>> like 13" by 13" but that's quibbling when that square foot is
>> conceptually so useful) I can even represent footwork for fencing or
>> the sweet science where working an opponent into a corner can be a
>> tactical goal... or the reverse rope-a-dope of course which is fatigue
>> focused for sure. Stopping a planed routine on the other hand is
>> pretty hard especially if practice has set reflexive muscle memory.
>> Ever seen the mistake happening as You make it spotting it but unable
>> to stop it? Still trying to hit that fastball You can't see is worse I
>> think for leaving one feeling helpless. Totally outclassed is a
>> horrible experience but the way to experience meh in all things is to
>> risk no weaknesses to focus on no strengths trying to cover all
>> bases...
>> Plus each sport can get a fantasy treatment times two with the real
>> teams version and the blood bowl fantasy title as stand alone product
>> from a Jay has a stomach too Ya know perspective...
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Marc Gacy <marcgacy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hey Jay,  Have you ever seen an old boxing game called Ringside, wher they
>>> had various moves like Uppercut and Combination.
>>>
>>> There was a matrix showing the effect of two fighters choosing a move
>>> simultaneously and revealing it.
>>>
>>> I was reminded of it seeing your list.
>>> ᐧ
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Jay Carlisle <maou.tsaou@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> X > (called Rest for simplicity)
>>>> L > S > C > K > JB > CL > R > T > P > B > Sur > OP1 > OP2 > OB1 > OB2 >
>>>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Jay Carlisle <maou.tsaou@gmail.com> wrote
>>> :
>>>> > Well burst My bubble and point out the flawed model that judges the
>>>> > standard according to what humans value ergo baby chimp is less than
>>>> > human because language is limited to a few phrases when human baby
>>>> > babbles with a bigger vocabulary vocal chords a moot consideration
>>>> > along with motor coordination and similar areas the humans have no
>>>> > advantage in... However the idea is that a statistical mechanic is
>>>> > representative of a definable concept that communicates an objective
>>>> > idea with some precision owing to the quantification so while totally
>>>> > fair as a point about assumptions of what IQ is overall I specifically
>>>> > use IQ as a measure of how quickly a Figure can perceive it's
>>>> > environment defined by IQ > > Figure can take on in Talents, Followers, and Orders and maintain at
>>>> > full effect. In effect the faster a Figure sees the smarter it is and
>>>> > the more specific functions can be maintained in the same period of
>>>> > routine compared to a Figure with a lower IQ. The idea is 1pt of IQ
>>>> > cost in a Talent represents not only the IQ cost to purchase said
>>>> > Talent but also represents the time required in maintaining said
>>>> > Talent each unit of downtime routine not actively engaged in gameplay
>>>> > per say. S^3 fits there as well (S#!^, shower, shave activity and the
>>>> > like) while 2sec/IQ (Joe Average ~0.2 second) is the see/decide time
>>>> > that added with reaction time via DX (1 second / DX) determines which
>>>> > phases are Actionable for a Figure naturally for focused combat that
>>>> > looks at detail the 5 second turn technically subsumes into what's
>>>> > basically a CRT for Melee as far as individual strikes are
>>>> > concerned... I use En Guard!/Swashbuckler style actions/reactions for
>>>> > this focus and the CRT generalization expands up into mass combat by
>>>> > extending scale/duration higher than 1.3m/5sec with the Lords of
>>>> > titles showing the concept isn't unfounded for TFT...
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 6:41 AM, Cris Fuhrman <fuhrmanator@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >> Thomas Armstrong, "7 Kinds of Smart":
>>>> >>
>>>> >>    1. Word smart (verbal intelligence)
>>>> >>    2. Picture smart
>>>> >>    3. Music smart
>>>> >>    4. Body smart (kenesthetic intelligence)
>>>> >>    5. Logic smart (math/science)
>>>> >>    6. People smart (social sense)
>>>> >>    7. Self smart (intrapersonal intellect)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> TFT Talents try to model a lot of these notions, but it still ties bac
>>> k
>>>> to
>>>> >> one number (IQ). Pushing the basic Melee/Wizard model clearly fails wi
>>> th
>>>> >> reality. What about eusociality? Is ant intelligence higher than a
>>>> fighter?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> All models are wrong; some models are useful. (George Box?)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 1:20 AM, Jay Carlisle <maou.tsaou@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Got the errata
>>>> >>> Thanks
>>>> >>> And I got the IQ 7 for ProotWiz'es although they may not actually be
>>>> >>> proots if the tribe runs them off... anyway, I'z musing as to what
>>>> >>> this might mean looking toward IQ 1 spells, if suchathing exists at
>>>> >>> all that is...
>>>> >>> IDK... Let's just say when testing defenses I find a fruitful first
>>>> >>> start often comes from targeting the assumptions... For general
>>>> >>> discussion I often describe "Magic" as the ability to call a virtual
>>>> >>> particle of specific traits into being via vacuum genesis as the root
>>>> >>> concept being manipulated but that's just one possibility that serves
>>>> >>> more to show how much such a concept can influence the idea as oppose
>>> d
>>>> >>> to say sympathetic magic that may be heavy on components and the
>>>> >>> correct verbal, gestural, procedural components to enact which is
>>>> >>> different from blood magic and yada yada yada... what's magic is
>>>> >>> affecting and area, perhaps at a distance, with an effect, and often
>>>> >>> with force intent on causing damage and whateverelse is lumped into
>>>> >>> the idea of the basic units on "Magic".
>>>> >>> I'm not talking about being "right" or comparing ideas so much as
>>>> >>> trying to point out that a LOT of core concepts are a bit... shaky
>>>> >>> objectively speaking and I think that the shared participation in
>>>> >>> what's in effect a story when the play is through is a major factor i
>>> n
>>>> >>> why a tabletop face to face soul rubbing RPGing gets a nod as a valid
>>>> >>> form of artistic expression albeit it's hard to say how limited the
>>>> >>> potential might be... and la la la, who knows? Still from that
>>>> >>> approach I find a clear expression of the basic "building blocks"
>>>> >>> helps in focusing each different Players visualization of what's
>>>> >>> happening into that shared gestalt of play.
>>>> >>> Uhhhh game as model railroad. There's the top of the model and there'
>>> s
>>>> >>> underneath the model and both are needed for the displays that attrac
>>> t
>>>> >>> the largest number of peoples attention... or describe the target
>>>> >>> interest group better if going that way with it the idea being not
>>>> >>> having a bunch of scenery guys show up to the experimental wiring
>>>> >>> wingding... not as likely to have everybody enjoy the focus that
>>>> >>> way...
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 9:19 PM, David Bofinger
>>>> >>> <bofinger.david@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> > On second thoughts add:
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >    - SUMMON PROOTWADDLE (C: IQ 7, ST 1/1) Summons a prootwaddle [S
>>>> >>> > T 10, DX
>>>> >>> >    10, IQ 6, MA 10, carries two-handed maul 1+1, 1-3 unarmed in HTH
>>> ]
>>>> to
>>>> >>> fig
>>>> >>> > ht
>>>> >>> >    for the caster.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > and modify:
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >    - UNREALISTIC IMAGE (C: IQ 7, ST 1/-) Creates a translucent 1 he
>>> x
>>>> >>> image
>>>> >>> >    that wouldn't normally fool anyone. Last 12 turns. Can be
>>>> disbelieve
>>>> >> d
>>>> >>> on
>>>> >>> >  2
>>>> >>> >    vs IQ. Can be as effective, or almost as effective, as a normal
>>>> Imag
>>>> >> e
>>>> >>> sp
>>>> >>> > ell
>>>> >>> >    in difficult seeing conditions (fog, etc.), if the creature bein
>>> g
>>>> >>> simula
>>>> >>> > ted
>>>> >>> >    happens to be translucent, or if the observer is a prootwaddle.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > The spells are IQ 7, not IQ 1. Probably should be a space between I
>>> Q
>>>> an
>>>> >> d
>>>> >>> 7.
>>>> >>> > The idea is that an ordinary prootwaddle can't learn them, but one
>>> of
>>>> >>> those
>>>> >>> > rare freakish prootwaddle geniuses can.
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > --
>>>> >>> > David
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > On 1 December 2015 at 15:05, David Bofinger <
>>>> bofinger.david@gmail.com>
>>>> >>> > wrote:
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >> I think animals should have a sort of IQ crippleware. It can do
>>>> some o
>>>> >> f
>>>> >>> >> what IQ does, willpower and perception for instance, but not
>>>> everythin
>>>> >> g.
>>>> >>> >> And they have instinctive talents like Alertness.
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >> My IQ 7 spells are:
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >>    - BLUNT WEAPON (T: IQ7, ST 1/-) A blunt weapon does 1 point les
>>> s
>>>> >>> >>    damage. A weapon can be blunted up to 5 times, subsequent uses
>>>> of t
>>>> >> he
>>>> >>> > spell
>>>> >>> >>    have no effect. Blunting is a permanent effect and can be
>>>> corrected
>>>> >>> by
>>>> >>> >>    Repair or use of a whetstone. Ineffective against weapons that
>>>> are
>>>> >>> alr
>>>> >>> > eady
>>>> >>> >>    blunt.
>>>> >>> >>    - FOG (C: IQ7, ST 1/-) Fills one hex with a magical fog that
>>>> somewh
>>>> >> at
>>>> >>> >>    obscures vision. -2 DX for missiles per hex of fog, and -2 DX i
>>> f
>>>> >>> attac
>>>> >>> > king
>>>> >>> >>    into or out of it. Anyone in or entering the fog also becomes
>>>> >>> slightly
>>>> >>> >>    damp. Lasts 12 turns, or less in wind.
>>>> >>> >>    - KILL RAT (T: IQ7, ST 1/-) Causes 1 point of damage. Does get
>>>> >>> stopped
>>>> >>> >>    by armour.
>>>> >>> >>    - LITERACY (S: IQ7, ST 2/-) Allows the caster to read and write
>>>> any
>>>> >>> >>    languages he knows, but reduces his IQ to 6 and disorders his
>>>> commo
>>>> >> n
>>>> >>> s
>>>> >>> > ense.
>>>> >>> >>    The spell lasts one minute: long enough to, for instance, write
>>>  a
>>>> >>> slog
>>>> >>> > an on
>>>> >>> >>    his own or another prootwaddle's body. The negative effects of
>>>> the
>>>> >>> spe
>>>> >>> > ll,
>>>> >>> >>    however, pretty much guarantee the slogan will be bizarre at
>>>> best a
>>>> >> nd
>>>> >>> >>    gibberish at worst.
>>>> >>> >>    - MAGIC ROCK (M: IQ7, ST V/-) Creates and flings a magic rock t
>>> o
>>>> >>> >>    damage a single target. Does 1D-3 (minimum 0) for each ST point
>>>> use
>>>> >> d
>>>> >>> t
>>>> >>> > o
>>>> >>> >>    cast.
>>>> >>> >>    - PROOT! (T: IQ7, ST 1/-) Makes a loud “Pro
>>> ot! Proo-oot!ï
>>>> >> ¿½â‚¬
>>>> >>> >   noise –
>>>> >>> >>    louder than a prootwaddle can make. Prootwaddles find the sound
>>>> >>> reassu
>>>> >>> > ring.
>>>> >>> >>    Non-prootwaddles find it irritating.
>>>> >>> >>    - PUSH / PULL (T: IQ7, ST 2/-) Victim must roll 3 vs DX, or 4 v
>>> s
>>>> ST
>>>> >> ,
>>>> >>> >>    victim's choice. If he fails he must step directly away from (f
>>> or
>>>> >>> push
>>>> >>> > ) or
>>>> >>> >>    toward (for pull) the caster, or fall down. (As though forced t
>>> o
>>>> >>> retre
>>>> >>> > at.)
>>>> >>> >>    Can also be used to push around inanimate objects, or even
>>>> friends.
>>>> >>> >>    - SPEED HAIR (T: IQ7, ST 3/-) For the next day the target's hai
>>> r
>>>> >>> >>    (wherever on body) grows at twice the normal rate.
>>>> >>> >>    - SUMMON HOUSE CAT (C: IQ7, ST 1/1) Summons a House Cat [ST 4,
>>>> DX 1
>>>> >> 4,
>>>> >>> >>    IQ 5, MA 14. 1-2 in HTH only, -3 DX for enemies to hit it] to
>>>> fight
>>>> >>> fo
>>>> >>> > r the
>>>> >>> >>    caster.
>>>> >>> >>    - SUMMON VERMIN (T: IQ7, ST 1/1) Summons vermin to fight for th
>>> e
>>>> >>> >>    caster, of a kind with which the caster is familiar: rats, bats
>>> ,
>>>> >>> piran
>>>> >>> > has,
>>>> >>> >>    piranhakeets, scuttles or something similar at GM discretion.
>>>> Roll
>>>> >>> one
>>>> >>> >  die
>>>> >>> >>    for the number, -1 if the environment is not really suitable, -
>>> 2
>>>> if
>>>> >>> hi
>>>> >>> > ghly
>>>> >>> >>    unsuitable, -1 for bats, -2 for piranhakeets.
>>>> >>> >>    - THICKSKINNED (T: IQ7, ST 2/-) Target's skin becomes thick and
>>>> >>> >>    leathery, it stops 2 hits but the target suffers -1 DX.
>>>> >>> >>    - UNREALISTIC IMAGE (C: IQ7, ST 1/-) Creates a translucent 1 he
>>> x
>>>> >>> image
>>>> >>> >>    that wouldn't normally fool anyone. Last 12 turns. Can be
>>>> disbeliev
>>>> >> ed
>>>> >>> > on 2
>>>> >>> >>    vs IQ. In difficult seeing conditions (fog, etc.) can be almost
>>>> as
>>>> >>> >>    effective as a regular Image. Also effective if the creature
>>>> being
>>>> >>> >>    simulated happens to be translucent.
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >> --
>>>> >>> >> David
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >> On 1 December 2015 at 13:23, Jay Carlisle <maou.tsaou@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote
>>>> >> :
>>>> >>> >>
>>>> >>> >>> Agreed David... working up a basic Google.doc for each stat as I
>>>> >>> >>> currently have worked up. In a 3 stat system each stat needs to d
>>> o
>>>> >>> >>> more than a single task and I use IQ as a measure of perception
>>>> and a
>>>> >> s
>>>> >>> >>> a measure of how effective a Figure or Unit can be at
>>>> micro-managing
>>>> >>> >>> its time which in effect allows more Followers/Talents/Orders to
>>> be
>>>> >>> >>> carried the higher the IQ. Orders are in effect Talents learned a
>>> s
>>>> a
>>>> >>> >>> Unit and able to be executed en mass and the above is more a rule
>>>> of
>>>> >>> >>> thumb guide to what kind of Orders might be expected from a Unit
>>> of
>>>> >>> >>> whathaveyou rather than trying to pin individual IQ's per say...
>>>> >>> >>> although the point about the monkey is quite interesting...
>>>> assuming
>>>> >>> >>> communication was possible such that an Order set was able to be
>>>> >>> >>> established and the monkey was hip to thinking like a human of
>>>> course
>>>> >> .
>>>> >>> >>> Plant's as individuals may not influence on a Melee scale of acti
>>> on
>>>> >>> >>> but the idea of a bio-region of plants being in a network may all
>>> ow
>>>> >>> >>> some influence on such activity? Agent Orange? IDK... How much do
>>> es
>>>> >>> >>> swimming have to do with smart?
>>>> >>> >>> Great points to mull over Sir, I'd love to see anything You might
>>>> hav
>>>> >> e
>>>> >>> >>> to hand on IQ7 spells by the way... no worries though.
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>>
>>>> >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 5:23 PM, David Bofinger
>>>> >>> >>> <bofinger.david@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>> >>> >> IQ
>>>> >>> >>> >> 0 >> >> 1 >> >> 2 >> >> 3 >> >> 4 >> >> 5 >> >> 6 >> >> 7 >> >
>>>>
>>>> 8
>>>> >>> >> >> 9 >> >> 10 >> >
>>>> >>> >>> > TL;DR but I picked this up skimming. My first instinct is that
>>>> it's
>>>> >>> go
>>>> >>> > t
>>>> >>> >>> to
>>>> >>> >>> > be wrong. By these definitions a fighter who owned a pet monkey
>>>> mig
>>>> >> ht
>>>> >>> > be
>>>> >>> >>> > well advised to let it handle the thinking.
>>>> >>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >>> > IQ 7 lets you buy weapon skills. I don't know if anyone's taugh
>>> t
>>>> a
>>>> >>> >>> monkey
>>>> >>> >>> > to fence, but I would guess someone in a circus has tried so
>>>> probab
>>>> >> ly
>>>> >>> >>> they
>>>> >>> >>> > failed.
>>>> >>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >>> > Great apes will occasionally use clubs but that doesn't require
>>>  a
>>>> >>> >>> talent.
>>>> >>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >>> > Some apes have been taught e.g. sign language but that has no I
>>> Q
>>>> >>> >>> threshold
>>>> >>> >>> > unless you call it literacy in which case it's IQ 8.
>>>> >>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >>> > Maybe chimps are IQ 4 to 6? That leaves prootwaddles slightly
>>>> smart
>>>> >> er
>>>> >>> >>> than
>>>> >>> >>> > most chimps which seems right.
>>>> >>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >>> > Birds vary a lot. Some birds, mostly corvids and parrots, are
>>>> reall
>>>> >> y
>>>> >>> >>> quite
>>>> >>> >>> > smart, probably maxing out at IQ 5 or 6. On the other hand
>>>> ratites
>>>> >>> ten
>>>> >>> > d
>>>> >>> >>> to
>>>> >>> >>> > be idiots.
>>>> >>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >>> > Dolphins aren't as smart as popularly imagined.
>>>> >>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >>> > Working at the trailing edge of intellect reminds me of when I
>>>> wrot
>>>> >> e
>>>> >>> u
>>>> >>> > p
>>>> >>> >>> IQ
>>>> >>> >>> > 7 spells for prootwaddle wizards. Magic Rock!
>>>> >>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >>> > --
>>>> >>> >>> > David
>>>> >>> >>> >
>>>> >>> >>> > >> > Post to the entire list by writing to tft@brainiac.com.
>>>> >>> >>> > Unsubscribe by mailing to majordomo@brainiac.com with the
>>>> message
>>>> >>> body
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>>>> >>> >
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