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Re: (TFT) 8 hits or more --> Duration of fall

Hi everyone--

I never considered the rules about being knocked down and standing up to be a problem and an inconsistency until just recently. Apparently it all stems from the "Codex" (which I do not own) and the "Fantasy Masters' Screen".

If all of this is confusing it's because, well, it is. Here's the first item which is on the "Fantasy Masters' Screen" where the text reads:

"You may rise from a prone/crawl posture to a kneeling/standing posture during movement. It costs your full MA."

This is in keeping with all of the Microquest versions of the rules and seems to imply that the advanced rules are either incorrect or altered from the Microquest versions.

But then here's the second item, under "Reaction to Injuries" on the same "Fantasy Masters' Screen". The text reads:

"See Advanced Melee, page 18. When a fall down result occurs during combat, the target must lose one action phase and one movement phase."

So how can a figure stand up during the next movement phase if he looses the next movement phase?

And page 18 in Advanced Melee does not really say this. It simply says that:

"A figure that takes 8 hits or more in one turn IMMEDIATELY falls down. If it has not already attacked, it may not attack that turn. It may do nothing NEXT turn except stand up (or stay down)." We are back to being consistent with the microquest games again.

Recently John brought up the Codex which says:

"The Codex answers this question by saying one turn is one action (attack) and one movement. So you lose the next movement and next action you are entitled to, even if they are in diferrent rounds." That seems to comply with item two from the "Fantasy Masters' Screen" I mentioned above.

But the Advanced rules do not explain a turn in this way at all. It says (on page 2) that a turn is 5 seconds long and during each turn a figure can execute one option from the list which consists of a movement, attack, defense, or other combination. This, again, is also exactly the way the rules are stated in the Microquest versions of the game.

Let's say a DX 12 figure is fighting a DX 14 figure. 14 hits 12 and knocks him down. So, according to the codex, 12 looses his next action phase in that round and is unable to attack (of course, he just got knocked down!) (Note that this is also consistent with the non codex rules.) Now it's the next round - movement phase, 14 moves and, according to the codex, 12 can not do anything because he looses his next movement phase. (In the microquest version 12 would stand up now and not be able to do anything else this turn.) Now 14 performs his action/attack (say he misses) and what can 12 do? Does he stand up now? Even though they can be interpreted this way no where do the rules really state that standing up is done during the action phase. In fact the screen states it's part of movement. And if you interpret the rules to read that standing is part of movement phase then 12 has to wait even more until the next turn before he can stand up! Two turns to stand? That's not right. However the "Fantasy Masters' Screen" also says you can stand up the next turn.

It's a mess.

Therefore I'm not so sure I agree at all with the game masters screen or codex here. It's a fundamental change to the game to alter the turn order from move/action to the next move phase/next action phase. This seems to be a major alteration coming from nothing more than a simple game master's screen.

So what's up with all of these altered rules?

Was the codex and or game masters screen written after SJ's departure from Metagaming and are we starting to see HT assert some changes to the rules that were not completely thought out here? (HT was not a game designer and the game designers that came after SJ at Metagaming were, in my opionion, not up to his caliber.) Where does SJ's influence stop and other's creep in? Maybe someone on this list knows or can piece together when SJ left in regards to when these rule alterations were published. I know I read once where SJ stated that he was moving on and what others might or would do to his game system after Advanced Melee was out of his hands and control. I also know that HT was in some ways eager to alter SJ's contribution due to the falling out they had had.

The big question I have then is what does everyone consider to be in the "official cannon"? I think that is where all of this confusion has cropped up. I personally never looked that deeply into the game master's screen or the codex to try to dig out the meanings of rules that I thought were not broken. I just assumed they were reorganized versions of the charts in AM and not new, additional rules.

I really feel like an archaeologist trying to piece together a manuscript from centuries ago to establish the intent of the original author here.

Looking forward to comments,
--David O. Miller

On Nov 9, 2006, at 1:52 PM, Rick Smith wrote:

Hi David, everyone.
  The way we play is that if you are knocked down
for any reason EXCEPT DAMAGE then you get up
during movement.

  If you fall down because of damage then you get
up during option phase at your adj DX.

  This makes falling because of damage very
dangerous.  I also use the pole weapons must do a
3 hex charge to get the double damage bonus, so
they have to have running and some room to get
the double damage attack.  (And they can't be
engaged to someone else of course.)

  I basically assume that where there is a
contradiction, the later, larger rules in AM / AW
take precedence.

  Regards, Rick.

On Thu, 2006-11-09 at 08:31, David O. Miller wrote:
This brings up a point that came up during a game I had the good
fortune to play with another member of this list recently. In all of
the mircoquest versions of Melee it states that you stand up (after
being knocked down) on your next turn, "during movement". In the
advanced rules "during movement" is deleted leaving one to rationalize
that you stand up on your DX as an option during combat. This
completely changes the game in so many ways. ...
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